While others are touting about their linux phone stuff as being “the future”, and “the first open source Linux phone”, Trolltech has the future and the worlds first open source Linux phone right now.
Qtopia Greenphone!
You can make phone calls, send SMS messages, AND easily add your own customized functionality, right now!. (they would too, had they used Qtopia) Heck you can even use it as your primary phone. I have been using mine for almost a year now.
You can hack on applications all you want, because Qtopia is GPL, and will always remain GPL. As an open source developer for more than 5 years now, I just don’t get the LGPL and why advocates of free, open source software keep using that license. Do you want more proprietary closed source or software that will always be free?
Back to the Greenphone, in phone bounce mode, you can use the modem from your desktop. You can ssh into the device and get a console. Play audio and video, using the highly optimized Helix libraries. And, if you are like me, you can write your own Shopping list and bar recipe applications to impress your friends and bartender.
We have created an SDK that runs in a virtual machine so you can develop from Windows or Mac. We have a simple script that builds the root filesystem (complete with the toolchain!). No having to install unstable and complicated distribution building tools that eat your hard disk space and make you want to poke your eyes out with a spork.
We have done so much work on Qtopia for the Greenphone, it would make your head spin and let the blue smoke out of your computer! We have a huge team of dedicated professional engineers, working night and day (Europe + Australia!) bringing you the best and easiest gui toolkit in the world to use (when we are not playing ping-pong or drinking beer).
Best of all, the Greenphone is an awesome shade of green and does not look like a hockey puck!
[edit]
Just so everyone knows, these are my personal opinions.
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37 comments
Ouch, my throat feels sore…
*cough*GPS*cough*? *cough*Accelerometer*cough*? *cough*WiFi*cough*? *cough*Hardware accelerated graphics*cough*?*cough*Complete access to all schematics (with easy to use links to relevant data sheets, etc.), open design process, not to mention that the users have been able to more or less control what comes in it*cough*? *cough*EVERYTHING is open and free (not just selected parts, like the greenphone (communications stack and package manager comes to mind))*cough*?
And probably more, but I don’t know the Greenphone very well. So yeah, I’ll save my pennies for the GTA02 version of the Neo1973. And then port Qt to it (if it isn’t already), and KDELIBS, so I can run Amarok on it.
Have a look at http://trolltech.com/products/qtopia/greenphone/greenphonesdk and then at http://svn.openmoko.org/trunk/ . See any differences?
The 1973 is a better phone by a long run and it is cheaper.
If i was going to pay THAT much for a phone I would just get a free phone and then add that to UMPC savings.
> While others are touting about their linux phone stuff as being “the future”, and “the first open source Linux phone”, Trolltech has the future and the worlds first open source Linux phone right now.
I guess thats a side blow into the direction of OpenMoko. On http://trolltech.com/products/qtopia/greenphone/index you say, that users/developers only get the “the capability to re-flash the applications memory” – Well, I cannot do that with every smartphone on the world right now, but I basicly can install new apps on every smartphone.
Isn’t your base system proprietary? How can a proprietary system be compared with a OpenSource system when talking about OpenSource?!
> You can make phone calls, send SMS messages, AND easily add your own customized functionality, right now
I can do that with every Nokia, too. Only the customizing is a bit >more “No having to install unstable and complicated distribution building tools that eat your hard disk space and make you want to poke your eyes out with a spork.” – “the Greenphone SDK can take up to 10 Gb HDD space, with a minimum of 3 Gb required”
Are you kidding?
> Best of all, the Greenphone is an awesome shade of green and does not look like a hockey puck!
Well, the Neo1973 might look like a hockey puck, but at least it doesn’t look like a copy of a SE K800i.
Everyone to his taste.
And green? Hey, like I said: Everyone to his taste.
Is Open Source the future? It is.
So can the Greenphone be the future? It can’t.
Can OpenMoko on devices like the Neo be the future? Maybe.
I though more phones on the market using free software was a good thing, no?
Lorn,
Trolltech has one of my two Neo’s, you have all the tools + emulator to adopt Qtopia to this device so please do so. And once you are done release the image + sourcecode so other people can rebuild it for the other phones that used to run Windows Mobile.
happy hacking
z.
Wow, TrollTech developers are so bitter.
Just another reason to never buy a greenphone.
No one wants to write their own applications. Supply a phone with a polished set of applications then the geeks can code anything additional. The linux community just doesn’t get it. People want easy to use over expandable. Get the UI and out of the box applications right. Take a tip. Copy the commercial guys like iphone or symbian. Don’t reinvent the wheel. The mass market is quite happy with those. And at the end of the day for a consumer device it’s the consumers that matter, not the developers.
And please make the Qtopia Greenphone really open source by providing source code to the binary-only kernel modules.
http://lists.trolltech.com/qtopia-interest/2007-03/thread00000-0.html
Guenther Jauch: Qtopia is open source. Only a few things are not – DRM, SXE and the phone libraries. The SDK can possibly take up that much space, depending on what you compile with it – just like a regular build can do. Also, you do not need the SDK to build Qtopia + greenphone image.
Zecke: not in Australia.
Ramsees: Not bitter, but trying to clear some air and point out the obvious point of the _Lessor_ GPL useage.
Saif Ahmed: You need to try Qtopia. You can download a Qtopia boot demo cd.
chithanh: Unfortunately, we did not write the kernel source code for the Omega board. For application developers, kernel doesn’t matter.
Ekiga is an opensource softphone and is six year old since a few days (see last news item on the homepage), so I’m sorry to tell you you’re very very late.
Did I mention it does both H.323 and SIP?
Though OpenMoko and Qtopia both give a free platform for hackers to play on, there is a big difference between the two projects IMHO: will I be able to port the whole Qtopia on the Neo1973 and use it if I want to ? Yes because the project is really free and gives me all the necessary tools and information to do so if I want to (and zecke’s message backs this up … and BTW, I would really be happy to have Qtopia well integrated on the Neo1973). Could I run Openmoko on the Greenphone ? I don’t think so.
Furthermore, Greenphone is claimed by Trolltech to be a developper phone (last week akademy talk on Qtopia), so please be consistent and don’t tell us here we can use it now as an everyday phone. That’s for the same reason I’m not buying the Neo1973 yet, I can hack what I want using the QEMU images, and since I want a real phone, I’m waiting for GTA-02. Is there a “GTA-02″ plan for the Greenphone ? I don’t think so.
Anyway, I think it is great to have two different free phones, or at least two different “mobile software environments”. Maybe Trolltech should try to team up with a hardware company to come up with an Neo alternative, or even better, integrate their good Qtopia on the Neo1973 !
Snark: Ekiga is software, Greenphone is hardware mobile phone that runs Qtopia, which also has support for VoIP.
Longfield: Yes, I do use Qtopia on Greenphone as my everyday phone. For other people, it might not be glossed enough. This is more about software, and not about hardware, as Qtopia runs on a multitude of hardware already. I was merely stating that it can be used as an everyday phone. As well, there _are_ proprietary parts to the Neo, which will make it difficult to obtain full functionality. and yes, you can compile openmoko for the greenophone. Will it work well? who knows, it depends on how well openmoko can adapt to different hardware.
heinz: Qtopia runs on more than the Greenphone. Qtopia is to Greenphone, as OpenMoko is to FIC Neo 1973.
Neo1973: $300
Greenphone: $695
+$195 if you want the source code.
+$195 per license if you want other developers to help with your app.
Anonymous: The package manager for Qtopia is open as well. OpenMoko did not initially have an open design. It was publically introduced well after it was started. I suppose you are going to actually make use of all those specs? Did you also see the one on the baseband processor/modem? The neo 1973 does have closed bits, too. So both the greenphone and neo are on equal ground in that aspect.
Rik: Qtopia is free open source. Thats what we are talking about, right?
> OpenMoko did not initially have an open design.
I would like to see a prove of that. I doubt that Harald “gpl-violations.org” Welte would engage in a proprietary project…
> I suppose you are going to actually make use of all those specs?
It doesn’t matter whether *I* can do this but it matter that *everyone* is allowed to make use of them.
> Did you also see the one on the baseband processor/modem? The neo 1973 does have closed bits, too.
Crap. They would even open up that but international GSM consortium doesn’t like that. Still they used the best software engineering approach: The GSM modem runs a different operating system and is talked to via serial connection and AT commands.
Internal law forbids the APGS driver to be free software as well. See their Wiki.
> So both the greenphone and neo are on equal ground in that aspect.
Greenphone is on equal ground to the Nokia Internet Tablet devices: Open to hack at the interface level, proprietary and closed on everything below.
The most important thing is forgotten here, while the Neo1973 will be available for consumers in October – http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 – the Greenphone is meant only for developers. In that sense the Neo1973 IS “the first open source Linux phone”.
I don’t like the looks of the Neo1973 either, I’d prefer a smartphone with Qtopia Phone Edition. But AFAIK I haven’t heard about a mass-market smartphone using Qtopia Phone Edition which is in the works. So I wonder, when will Trolltech’s competitor to the Neo1973 arrive at the consumer market?
Thank you Robert Schuster for clearing up the differences.
Of course you, lorn, are right, that even the Neo1973 has some “closed bits”.
But like Robert said, a phone wouldn’t get an approval in many countries and so on if the GSM would be completely open.
I also agree Robert, that the approach to strictly separate the GSM from the rest is the best choice.
There also is the GPS – it seems that the used hammerhead-chip is one of the best possibilities for GPS in mobiles.
Afaik the OpenMoko-project wants to write a open driver.
OpenMoko and the Neo are as open as possible and as closed as necessary.
Imho thats a good thing and when you trolltech/qtopia-people want to have a competition you should play at the same level.
I do not say that Qtopia, qt or what else are bad, but attacking OpenMoko this way with a (still partly) proprietary plattform on a really expensive device is cowardly.
Yeah Right!!! just how open is it?????
License fee: $195 USD
Reminds me of why I dumped M$.
Old Geek: Qtopia is free and is available now. That license fee is for having a commercial license, which allows you to create non free, non GPL proprietary applications.
Robert Schuster: initially, it was designed behind closed doors, thus not an open design. I don’t see the difference between one closed module and a thousand. The number doesn’t matter, nor does the reason why they are closed.
> I don’t see the difference between one closed module and a thousand.
For other people it is what makes an effort classify as open/free or closed/proprietary.
> The number doesn’t matter, nor does the reason why they are closed.
Your opinion, thats fine. But I think the reason why people perceive OpenMoko as a truly free and open source software project is that they do think different about that point.
And as zecke (http://zecke.blogspot.com/2007/07/lovely-respond-to-lorn-potter-of.html) points out: The userspace on the greenphone is not fully free software either …
The greenphone looks even less appealing after reading this post. The trolltech labs forums are stale, not a good sign. While it might be promising to some that trolltech is giving away phones to developers to encourage some sort of activity, to me it seems too little too late. I’m not willing to fork over $700 for a phone for which all source code is not available. It blows my mind that there are license fees on top of that. Where are you manufacturing these things, the north pole? Why is it so expensive?
Anyhow, I took the plunge today and plopped down $320 (S&H incl.) for a Neo1973. I’m excited at all the possibilities. Trolltech you might want to rethink your approach. And change your company’s name. Traditionally, trolls sit beneath bridges and rob people trying to cross.
As I see it, the big difference is how both products were announced: Trolltech is basically promoting the greenphone as a developer tool (so that’s not as a phone ready for mass usage), while OpenMoko announces the Neo as a real end-user oriented product! Moreover, the capabilities of both phones is well behind most recent phones released by companies like Nokia or Apple ! What I would like is a phone with hardware capabilities like f.e. the Nokia N95 (wifi, 5mp camera, GPS, …) and Qtopia on it at the same time, or a Symbian version of Qt
(why the hell did you start with a Windows Mobile version ? 
).
I totally agree in seeing the GreenPHONE as NOT free as long as libqtopiaPHONE is actually not free.
I can understand that the DRM and SXE are not available but that the actual basis to really play around with a phone would be that at least the Qtopia part of the phone libraries would be free.
What would it matter to hack on Qtopia if there is no way of making a call with a custom build image derived from the Qtopia Community edition?
There is no need to release the kernel interface to the phone as there are obviously other licence issues pending so it’s not really up to you – but the Qtopia part is in your hand!
PLEASE release the code of the Qtopia phone libraries so one gets an usable image when compiling the open source edition of Qtopia!
It would DEFINITELY attract much more developers and you would probably see Qtopia on the Neo1973 in the near future as a community project…
Thank you!
Rob: There are no licensing fees if you choose GPL. One of the reasons why the Greenphone is so expensive is that they weren’t made in the millions, nor is there a huge company behind it subsidizing it through sales of other phones/hardware. Another reason is that it is not a consumer device, it is more like a reference board, which often range in the thousands of dollars.
@Lorn: Took the chance to blog about this. Sorry if I sounded rude in the first comment: http://www.fsfe.org/en/fellows/robertschuster/weblog/more_to_say
@rix: OpenMoko is marketed as an end user device? There is very much mentioning that the Neo1973 in its current state is a development platform on openmoko.com, wiki.openmoko.org and the planet.
@Robert: Sure, I know this isn’t really an end user device, but simply compare both product pages: the approach to describe the product is totally different ! For me, it basically explain why everyone is seeing the Neo as a revolution, while almost noone except us (Qt blog readers) know that the Greenphone is available since long time with about the same capabilities…
http://trolltech.com/products/qtopia/greenphone – “Offered as part of the Greenphone SDK”… Do you really expect to attract end-users with such a description ?
In the FAQ, you can even read “Is Greenphone a commercial mobile phone? A. Greenphone is not intended as an end-user’s primary cell phone.”. That makes it clear, at least.
http://www.openmoko.com/products-neo-base-00-stdkit.html – Here, the first thing you see is “Colours available”… heheh. In Pictures, you can even read “The Design
Neo is a smarter phone. A subtle retro look lurks behind the modern design to make sure we never forget our roots.” Not exactly what a developer is looking at when buying a device, is it ?
Why green? the single most discusting colour you could release a phone in other than brown.
Also, why do open source projects have to slag each other off? I know each product will be competing for developers, but people choose products based on their merits. Some people will want a touch screen, others will want keypads. Choice is good.
>Old Geek: Qtopia is free and is available now. That license fee is for having a commercial license, which allows you to create non free, non GPL proprietary applications.
> Robert Schuster: initially, it was designed behind closed doors, thus not an open design. I don’t see the difference between one closed module and a thousand. The number doesn’t matter, nor does the reason > why they are closed.
AFAIK, it’s normal for open source developers to not release the source code until they have someththing usable to show. I guess it’s the same reasoning the OpenMoko/FIC designers used. And they’ve opened as much as legally possible, while still making it usable in most countries.
And the community has had plenty of input afterwards. On the other hand, the community (outside trolltech) hasn’t been able to have any input on the design on the Greenphone.
The difference between the Neo and the Greenhpone is that the Neo is built to more or less showcase the viability of open hardware, while the Greenphone is to showcase/promote Qtopia. It’s not even a fair fight.
So, let’s summarize:
Features: Greenphone loose, Neo 1973 wins.
Price: Greenphone loose, Neo 1973 wins.
“Openness”: Greenphone loose, Neo 1973 wins.
Prettiness (from my neutral point of view): Greenphone loose, Neo 1973 wins.
Seems like there’s a trend here.
@Lorn: Please do not ignore the statement, that one – if not THE – central part of the Greenphone/Qtopia source is missing: The phone part!
Only if this part is released you can claim, that the phone is open – otherwise it is nothing more than a PDA with an open development platform (Qtopia Platform) and a seperate SDK for phone applications.
You just mention the missing phone part in a subordinate clause – in conjunction with the missing DRM/SXE part that probably noone from the community really cares about (in contrast to commercial contractors).
With the rise of OpenMoko Trolltech really should reconsider if it’s worth to hold back the Qtopia phone part from the community.
I see no other choice than releasing the source under GPL otherwise Qtopia will be rejected by the community as a mobile phone plattform even though Qtopia is the more appealing platform in comparision to GPE^2.
Release it with Qtopia 4.3 and you will hopefully get a major impact!
One of the coolest things about OpenMoko is a follow-on from the poster above: the ability to write apps that use the phone and communication layer. I see things like a chess game that invisibly uses SMS to broadcast the moves between whoever you are playing against, or a support-app that automatically calls different numbers based on circumstance (like whatever city you happen to be in).
Then theres the VERY cool stuff like mesh networks automatically syncing and exchanging application data between all the phones at your work (auto-horizontal-syncing calenders, book yourself a meeting and everybody else in your office knows about it before lunchtime without having to take your phone out of your pocket).
This stuff is about leveraging the fact that open source software is no longer on a PDA, but on a portable communication device, and that is what OpenMoko is fundamentally about. All the polished top layer code in the world doesn’t measure up to that. Then factor in the 3d chip, 640×480 screen, accellerometer, and we aren’t in kansas anymore.
Hi Lorn
as a guy who dosen’t know anything about kernels and operating systems , and dosen’t care , I want to remind you that as a user I expect from an “open” phone -
- Skype on my phone via WIFI , with seamless roaming to GSM!!
- Calendar which can also be location-sensitive , and other location-based apps like maps
- File sharing like Bittorrent on my phone , via bluetooth or wifi
- ogg playback , and no DRM crap
- Guitar tuner , and other apps which require access to mic , like karaoke
- remote control
- interface with anything from heart monitor to home automation through bluetooth or.. whatever
stuff that will actually SAVE me money.
will the neo deliver all these? not soon.
I also think, that we need the knowledge to bring QTopia OS to other Devices.
I can think of many ways to use this p.e. iPod or the iPhone, Zune,… in my fridge or even on my home theater pc
with a version of p.e. KDEembedded.
Or why not give us a libqtopiaphone version on openmoko under GPL.
Ok, who was the moron who said something about putting Qtopia on a Neo 1973, but said it was impossible to put OpenMoko on a greenphone? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Supported_Hardware not supported, but if you read the site, it hopes to be able to put it onto ANY phone. baka.
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